CKRC Forums

I am trying to figure out the senior 4-cycle class engines and tire regs
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Early in one of the other strings John said the decision of the class at the Dec 11 meeting was:

“LO206 - 350lbs
Stock Animal - 350lbs
Clone * - 350lbs * not EDKRA Outlaw Clone but basically a Canada Senior type of Clone
Modified Animal(WKA Stock) at 375lbs

Open tires and all on gasoline. All race together as the 4-cycle class for the same trophies and points championship. With the longer term view to being LO206 only in 2012.”

I am a little confused by the Animal rules as quoted above.
The only rules for the Animal are the WKA (or identical IKF) stock class rules (even these have to be modified to allow smaller jet sizes to be used in the carburettor to run on gas – but that is a relatively minor change).

The modified Animal engine is primarily a CKRC thing from 2009 when the engine was running on methanol. On methanol the engine will make power at higher revs than on gas and was therefore wearing out pistons and camshafts – so specific aftermarket pistons and cams were allowed to be substituted for the stock Brigg’s racing parts. These aftermarket parts would NOT be legal under ASN stock rules as above.

Originally the plan was to keep the Animals box stock – but to my knowledge none were ever sealed from new and almost all have been worked on to some extent. So it is unclear where these engines would fit into the rules. Some people talk about not having machined the block or head – but how would a fellow competitor or the CKRC tech team know if a machined surface was as originally done at the factory or redone by an engine builder – about the only thing that can be determined is whether or not it meets the specs for a stock engine (those WKA specs as above).

All the engines are to run on gasoline – what grade of gasoline. Given the low compression of all these engines they would probably run fastest on regular – even if they have been decked for maximum compression. Not really a major issue any pump grade will do and will provide a fairly level playing field. But it is mildly offensive to be paying extra for premium gas to put in a low compression engine that does not need the higher octane and so gets no performance benefit from the added expense incurred.

Where does the ASN Honda fit into this?
And what are the clone rules ? Some have been refernced that allow for a .005" tolerance to Honda ASN specs

And tires – I have talked to some who attended the meeting who came away with the impression that the tire rule was to be any tire no softer than the spec tire for the Senior Rotax class. We would probably have to get club permission to run open (sticky) tires anyway since they were banned in 2001 to protect the new track’s surface (sticky tires tend to rip up the track). But no stickier than the spec Rotax tire should be no issue – and would allow “re-using” tires from the discard pile which apparently was the intent of the rule change. To that end do we intend to allow the use of tire softners (at least away from the facility) to make these old tires competitive – given ASN’s concerns about health effects unto the third generation.

Well, I had a lengthy reply written and the forum bugged out on me.

Anyway...

-The mod Animals have to comply with WKA Stock rules. I have not seen these so I don't know what that is.
-ASN Honda's are basically clones and vice-versa. They would be competitive as Canada Senior tech. 350lbs.
-Open tires is what was voted in. No other provisions.
-Regular gas for 4 cycles is in the club supp. regs.
-Clone rules are basically Canada Senior rules with provisions for the manufacturing differences ie larger clone carb
-Tire softeners are frowned upon by ASN but there is no way to control it without some kind of solvent sniffer

John K

Maybe we need another meeting to clear some points up.

There appears to be no significant diference between the Animal rules for the 350 weight and the Animal rules for the 375 weight if the aftermarket cams and pistons are no longer allowed. Indeed the rules for the 350 class are arguably laxer than those for the 375 group.
"Stock" Animals in 2009 and were at least partly teched under USAC rules (see club rules ver 7.1) but the additional wording that follows has so many inconsistencies it is very hard to see / figure out what was meant let alone what was mandated. There are strictures in place about "blueprinting" (remachinin stock parts to the stated limits in the regulations) but absolutely no means of determining whether a machined surface was done at the factory or done after the engine was bought - so these rules are totally unenforceable. Even if older used engines are sealed - it is impossible to ensure that the engines were unaltered stock from the factory when they are presented to be sealed.

Others are saying that there was a limit put on the tires of no stickier than the rotax tire.

There is no published provision in the class for Honda's and no rules published for the clones - is this an oversight or deliberate? Above you seem to be implying that we use the ASN Honda specs to determine if the clones are legal.

Honda 4-strokes were on regular unleaded gas in 2009 and all other 4-strokes were on premium (putting clones on premium???).

I should also correct my original post in that the Animals were originally "sealed" in 2005 and 6 with common crush lead seals available to all in any industrial supply store - correct me if I am wrong but there has never been a traceable unique seal appplied.

Are there official minutes from this meeting? Who would have them?

Others are saying that there was a limit put on the tires of no stickier than the rotax tire.

There was talk of limiting the tires to this spec but without a reliable durometer and who would deem other tires as suitable, it was then voted to leave the tires as open.

There is no published provision in the class for Honda's and no rules published for the clones - is this an oversight or deliberate? Above you seem to be implying that we use the ASN Honda specs to determine if the clones are legal.

I guess because we are an ASN club that Canada Senior running in the 4 cycle class was kind of a given. Just because there haven't been any lately doesn't mean they are banished. There is an extensive list of rules in the ASN Tech book that these can come and run by. Among these other things, weight for the Hondas was not discussed either. Canada Senior weight under ASN national rules is 340lbs. With the Honda carburator being smaller this is probably a competitive weight.


I know that official rules and enforcement for this class has been somewhat vague for the past couple years. I built my clone to basically Canada Senior specs and eventually ran it competitively with the front runners Markus(stock) and Denny(mod). I don't know exactly what or if anything has been done to either of their motors. Being the off-season, this is the time to take care of these grey areas that you have brought up. There may have been minutes written down, Markus, being the class rep would probably have those. Todd was at the meeting and shed some light on what the mod engines had for changes. I can't remember exactly, but cams, rods and piston may have been mentioned with more explanation on the difference between the cam in the LO206 and the ones they had put in the mod motors. It was mentioned that the LO206 actually had a better cam than the stock Animals but was limited by the ignition. I don't know what cams are in the modded engines. If WKA stock does not allow the aftermarket cams, rods and pistons then I don't know what spec the current mod engines are built to. I asked what spec they were going to run by and they said WKA. I am guessing you want to know exactly what you can do to build a mod engined kart to fit in at 375. I have chased this dragon a few times and am still not sure where everything stands.

As far as clones are concerned, they are to be run stock with the following additions or changes:
These rules describe the specifications of clone engines. All parts must be factory production parts unless otherwise specified. No machining or alteration of parts is permitted unless specifically noted. All parts are subject to be compared to known stock parts. No reading in-between the lines. If it is not in the rules, it must remain stock. UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ENGINE WILL BE TECHED AS RACED.

-stock means: the parts that the engine came with. The motors are so cheap that it doesn't make sense to re-build them.
-remove engine mounted gas tank and run floor mounted tank with any fuel pump pulse fed from valve cover or crankcase side cover.
-stock carb with original bore no go size (0.615") venturi and (0.751") rear bore size. Any main jet size, any pilot jet size, GX140 emulsion tube allowed or stock
-all stock unmodified gaskets and spacers must be used to install carburator
-Head gasket is non-tech
-Combustion chamber volume: Minimum 27.5cc
-no decking or machining of any surface
-stock valves and keepers with G200 valve springs (part # 14751-883-000)
-Stock Camshaft (no CL-1 or CL-1M)
Maximum running lift: on Exhaust is 0.242" taken on valve spring retainer with zero lash.
Maximum Exhaust lift: on cam .232" taken at the pushrod.
Maximum Running Lift: on Intake is 0.238" taken on valve spring retainer taken on valve spring retainer with zero lash.
Maximum Intake lift: on cam .225" taken at the pushrod.
Maximum Duration check for Intake and Exhaust lobes (taken off pushrod). Cam lobe base circle diameter .865" -.005"/+.010". (All checks will allow +2 degrees for wear and gauge variances.)
Exhaust duration of 221.5" degrees at .050" lift/96.5 degrees at .200" lift.
Intake duration of 218.5 degrees at .050" lift/85.5 degrees at .200 lift".
-remove governor and low oil sensor
-stock flywheel with or without a key and timing is open
-any aftermarket carb cup and filter
-Canada Senior pipe dimensions Must be single stage maximum outside diameter of the header tubing throughout the entire length shall be 0.925” MINIMUM – 1.005” MAXIMUM with two exceptions:
The bend area where the diameter shall be 0.900” MINIMUM – 1.050” MAXIMUM. Within the thickness of the flange.
The length of the header shall be 8.000” min. – 12.000” maximum, not including the silencer.
Measurement to be taken with a 1/4” (6 mm) maximum width cloth tape measure.
-dry shoe clutch, no disc clutches
-spark plug and cap is open
-any kind of throttle assembly and top plate as long as there is a safe and effective throttle return mechanism.
-engine mounted chain guard mandatory
-pipe wrap mandatory
-regular unleaded gas from club set spec gas station and pump
-maximum chassis width 55"
Unless mentioned otherwise, only stock clone components purchased with the engine can be used.

Some of this was taken from IKF and ASN Canada but these are the clone rules we will run by.

John K

So if Denny has a modified motor done by a local engine builder– it was probably built according to the regs published in the 2010 Club supplementals – which likely means it would not match WKA specs for a modified motor. Motors bought from US engine builders would likely meet WKA specs.
It would be very unfortunate for racers who have paid someone to build a motor to the 2010 regs to be found illegal under WKA rules, and the 2010 regs were dq them for the whole year!
Somebody needs to catch this dragon soon – really think we need another class meeting – it seems to me that people are voting on “headlines” with no common understanding of what is meant by the terms used.

Still need clarification of what the stock rules are for the Animal at 350lbs - if they are these same WKA ones then maybe the difference could be the aftermarket parts allowed in 2010 regs.

Where do the clone rules that you quote come from and more to the point how are they enforced /teched. Saying that no machining is allowed does not stop deliberate cheating – either knowingly by a competitor on his own engine or unknown to the racer by engine builders trying to create a reputation for building fast engines. If a simple “don’t do it” were enough we would not need to be sealing engines!

What does “engine will be teched as raced” mean – or more to the point how else can you do it?

Perhaps the rule for the clone should be that the club buys the engines and seals them in the same manner as the 206? As stated they are cheap enough that the owner should have no need to go into the bottom end.

I am trying to get back into this class. I have raced a box stock animal in Calgary, currently own an ASN legal Honda GX 200 and am too fat to make weight with either of these engines. The 206 may be the way of the future but no one seems to have considered how a rev limited engine is going to be able to pass unlimited engines at the end of the straights while the other engines will have no problem pulling out of the draft and passing when the 206 hits the rev limiter.
So for me that engine choice is out – even if I could make weight.
Which does leave the Animal in one form or another for this year. And like anyone else buying an engine for what is likely to be just one season’s use I want to make sure that it is a level playing field and that I am competitive. The class is not so strong that we can afford to be encouraging new racers to start with engines that are not a match to the others or having anyone kicked out at post race tech.

I am not sure how we achieve a level playing field amongst 3 or 4 different engines , but I do know that the 2011 class rules as posted in these forums are not up to the task yet.

If we do have another meeting for the class to clear up the regs would really appreciate it if it can be held on a Fri Sat or Sunday as I am working afternoon shift. I apologize for not making the last meeting on a Saturday - but a delivery deadline got moved up from the following Wednesday and was working that day too.

The existing engines are competitive with each other. Someone could buy a better "WKA Stock" engine and wax all of us, but I doubt it. There is alot more to driving a 4 stroke kart than most people will admit to. Last year, I didn't quite have the horsepower but I had lots of corner speed and handling. The MyLaps results speak for themselves.

The discussion at the meeting was to allow all of these motors to run together in 2011 and separate into a light and heavy L0206 class past 2011. I drove the LO206 and feel that it will have no problem being competitive in 2011.

What does “engine will be teched as raced” mean – or more to the point how else can you do it?

This was the term used in the IKF rule book and I suppose it means that no pre-tech in the paddock will be used to determine legality. If that isn't it, I don't know.

Any machining can be detected by comparing to a known stock part. The pop-up on the decking would be noticeable, any cylinder head machining would be noticeable and any port polishing would be noticeable. If it wasn't noticeable the effects would probably be negligable anyway. If someone feels the need to win a much coveted CKRC chrome plastic trophy by these means, then there are no rules that can be written to stop them.

The Clone rules that I put in the previous reply are a combination of several rule sets that I felt were reflective of the engine I ran competitively last year. Being the only one who ran a clone, it was the only first hand experience I had. I have researched this fairly extensively.
The Box Stock Clone class run in the U.S. uses the stock valve springs, stock keyway timing and a smaller pipe/silencer combo and would not be competitive with anything but itself. The Superbox Clone class in the U.S. uses the Honda 18lb (G200) valve springs, allows advanced timing and uses the bigger pipe with the RLV B91 silencer. The Superbox also allows decking which puts it out of the range of most DIY racers. The Americans have also gone to a spec CL-1 and CL-1M cam to take out the variances between clone manufacturers. There are several clones being used in the U.S. such as the Blue and Yellow clone.
The Lower Mainland club have built their motors to ASN Canada Senior specs with a few allowances for the differences between a Honda and a clone such as the bigger clone carb but they don't use the GX140 emulsion tube ($25) for cost reasons. They do run the Honda's and Clone's together.

So for 375lb "Mod" Animal or basic stock Animals, I don't know the specifics and another meeting might be needed or at the very least, the WKA rules need to be published like I have published the Clone rules.

John K

If I could just address one thing for you Tony, last year with a 206, and weighing 40 pounds over, I was able to pull out & pass 2 GX200 that were drafting.
The rev limiter didn't end up being an issue. Before I ran the engine we assumed the rev limiter would be but were pleasantly surprised by the grunt out of the corners and the pull down the straight.

Matt Bradley
Saskatoon Kart Racers